Ban the breed: relocate the living ((GRAFIC PICS))

[Zhentee]

Now, I’m NOT trying to sound like this horrible person who is against all the rest of your guises argument, on the ban of pit bulls, but you have all had a chance to give your say, and now I want mine herd. I’m going to quote a few of my post from the pervious thread, that I don’t know if every one saw, I’m also going to put up some pictures, that some of you may not want to see so,

THIS IS A WARNING! THIS POST CONTAINS GRAFIC PICTURES!

I realize its horrible to go out and to simply kill all these innocent dogs, and THAT I am AGAINST,

HOWEVER, I do me live that a ban should be put on the breed in many populated areas, and owners should be a given a chance to relocate their dogs, simply because the breed is naturaly more aggressive then mnay breeds of dogs, I posted this in the previous thread explaining why:

“””no dog is born evil, however, you can't argue the fact that the breed is naturally more aggressive, due to the fact that, ay a certain point in their life, their skull stops growing while their brain continues to grow, this caused them to have a head-ach, 24/7, and that makes them aggressive.”””

I know it seems wrong, but so is the favt that hundreds of CHILDREN are now maimed and disfigured due to dog attacks. And I know its not only Pit Bulls that will atack, but just because it’s a family pet doesn’t mean it cant attack you, this was also said in the previous post:

“””… its horrifying. My nephew was attacked by his dog last year, a dog he had grown up with and to that point had been nothing but an overly loving family pet. But, one day out of no were the dog attacked him, tearing out a chunk of his lip, biting open his head, and nearly bit out his eye. the had to bring in a plastic surgeon because the normal doctors couldn't fix the damage.”””

To back this up, I have gathered some pictured of the damage delt by a dog attack:










I truly wish I had some pictured of my nephews encounter… because the saddest part was, despite his encounter, and all the damage delt, when he got home form the hospital, the first thing he did was hug the same dog that attacked him…

Some thing the agressiopn problem could be breed out, howev I don’t think that’s true… and another quote:

“””unfortunitly, it seems to be a trait specific to pit bulls, and I doubt it could be breed out. A friend of mine had a bitbull shepard mix named lucy, and they were hoping that the shepard in her would take care of the skull braind problem. and for a while they thougth it had, but out of no were, lucy snaped at thier baby girl hazel. Lucy also went to thier neighbors proporty and attacked one of thier dogs, doing some serious damage.

they quarinteend lucy to see if perhaps she had goten rabies, a reasonable explanation for her agression, however that failed. with further inspection they descovered that it was infact that her skull had stoped growing, and her braid had not.

even with the shepard in her, it didn't fix her problem.”””


The bottom line I suppose, is that it’s a horrible thing that has/did/will happen. Its sad that we can ban the people who cause these things, all we can do is ban the things that let them do it. But if it will keep children, teen, and even adults safe, its seems to be the only thing to do.

[Carnage]

[glow=red,2,300]Maybe no one has replied to this because they don't know what to say. I myself am at a loss for words, and I don't really know which side to take. I have heard of pit bulls being the sweetest dogs, and then I have heard things like this on the news of them attacking children. I guess it depends on who raises them and how they do it, and also on the brain thing, though I didn't know that happened to the dogs. I still don't think the breed should be banned or blatantly exterminated, at least not on a general level. Why punish hundreds of dogs for something a few have done? If I go on, it will only be re-stating the previously stated in other threads, perhaps another reason why no one has replied?[/glow]

[Zhentee]

So when it comes to the death and mauling of dogs, every one speaks their mind, but when it comes to the death and mauling of children people prefer to keep silent? Isn’t that sort of backwards? Even family dogs raised by good people can still grow vicious and attack!

I know it sound like a horrible thing to do, but if you take a way a pit bull fighter’s weapon, then what are they going to do? Sure they could go out and get a Doberman, or a Rottweiler, hell even a poodle could be taken and turned into a mean dog, but it takes time! And with that time, people could monitor the sales or birth of dog breeds, see which one will suddenly escalate, then they can stop dogfighters before it gets out of hand! Its not that hard.

Its not alike I’m saying oh go kill all of them, I’m saying people should be given the chance to relocate their dogs to a less populated area were fewer attacks have/will happen.

This is a place for debates isn‘t it? A debater’s will repeat themselves, if it gets their point across.

[Dakota Spirit]

I'm sorry but I will never support a breed ban. Not now, not ever. Especially when the punishments out there for the owner's of dogs that are actually vicious are so poor. Half the people that get caught for dog fighting rings or whatever don't care if they have to pay a fine or spend a few months in jail...they just get back on the street and do it agian.

You said "I’m saying people should be given the chance to relocate their dogs to a less populated area were fewer attacks have/will happen" But why should the have to move their dogs just because some can't take care of theirs properly? And its not just pits that would get effected by this either...any bully breed dog that even looks remotely like a Pit will get targeted.

Education is the key...not banning.And as for that brain thing, I have never seen and hard evidence that that is even true.

I know I sounded like a compleat idiot in this post...I'm not good at writing out how I feel. So I guess it comes down to the simple fact that I will never be a support of breed bans.

[Exerci]

I know that Pitbulls are a breed that is ment to be naturally more aggressive than other breeds of dog, but if they were to only put-down dogs thay actually had attacked people, that may be more fair to those who own a Pitbull that isn't as aggressive as they are stereotyped to be.

[Zhentee]

I’ve been told by many vets, and some pit bull breeders, that their skull stops growing before their brain.

When I was young we had to movie to California for the winters because my mom had lung problems. At that point we had a very large very loving Rottweiler named Turkish, or Turk for short. He was by no means a mean dog, or an aggressive beast, unfortunately we were moved to in California, they had a breed ban on Rottweilers, Dobermans and Pit bulls, try as we may have to change their minds, they refused to let us have our dog within the boundaries of the breed ban. This meant for the half a year we were in California, we had to leave Turk with my grandparents, it seemed mean, and it was hard to leave him but it HAD to be done.

Maybe I can see it as a more realistic thing, because its something I have had to live threw. I’ve lived threw vicious dog attacks, and I’ve lived threw a breed ban. Sure its not fair, but life’s not fair. And at the time I didn’t support the breed banning either, but it was something I cam to understand, and something I support.

If every time you saw specific breed of dog, and it remained you of that one moment when you were starring down the throat of a, lets use the term ‘monster’ teeth barred, salivating, law dropped, and that deep growl that emerged from that same throat… then you might see things a little differently.

And what might you call an attack? A little nip? A lunging bite? Or something more terrifying? By that time the damage would be done before the problem could be solved! And what about those people like my nephew, and that little girl Hazel? They had family pet who they loved that attacked them? Who says another’s pet wouldn’t/couldn’t do the same?

[Shunké]

Yow, I never kwew that. The brain thing- I mean. This might be horrible. but if they really do suffer- yeah.

Still, I think that Pit bulls, like Rotties, are naturally territorial. More so, than the regular breed. That makes them more vunerable to attack people, children even.

I think, that if indeed you were to own a pit bull, that you would be responsible, and know how to handle one. Children are naturally playful, or whatever, and might end up doing something the dog doesn't like. Like, that girl, who got her face ripped off by a pit bull, because she touched the dog's pups. That, was stupid. The parents should have been watching, and I think most dogs would have acted the same way. Well, violently.

Something else that makes the pit's bites more deadly, is they hold on when they bite. They don't let go, like most dogs. That makes their bites worse.

Still, it's how they are raised. Not social, they will react violenlty towards people. Brought up with children- they most likely won't bite them. This also includes if they had a posotive or negitve enviroment. My dog, is a chow/lab mix. She's sweet toward us, but we didn't socalise her well, and she doesn't react well toward people. Also, our 5 year old neighbor used to her her with sticks. How did we find this out? He used to play with sticks, and we would find him staring at our fence (it has 2 inch gaps between the slabs) with a stick in his hand. Misty would be growling viciously, barking, wanting to rip the kid's head off. She acts like that toward all younger kids, because of that one. It's not her fault, it's his. Even though she wasn't socalized well, I try my best to take her on walks, and now she's better. But not, towards kids. And she hates our neighbor, the most.

So, no matter what physical problem the dog has, I still think it's the enviroment, and the way it's raised. Not to mention, it's territorial instincts.

[Zhentee]

But what about those who had no reason for their attack? Like my nephew, he grew up with for 2 and a half years! He could feed the dog by hand, he played with that same dog every day, and they had NOTHING but good times. Why did he attack? What about Hazel? Lucy and hazel grew up together, they played together, they were a loving family, yet Lucy attacked hazel? What about me? The dog I grew up with bit my face, his mouth compleetly covered my eye, yet it grew up in a loving environment.

All these dogs had a loving and friendly, and very social environment to grow up in and all of them ended up attacking their kids? Not all dogs will attack people for touching their puppies, My mom raided Dobermans when she was younger, and she was able to hold all the puppies when they were merely minutes old. I have a puppy named Biskits N Gravey, and I got to hold him when he was a week old, and his mother didn’t care one bit, and I hadn’t meet his mother till merely minutes before!

I wont deny that an environment has a lot to do with the way a dog acts, but its not every thing.

I have had the misfortune of meeting more mean pit bulls then nice ones, and perhaps that’s what shapes my opinion of them, just like all who have meet nice ones think highly of them. They’re a beautiful breed, and its sad they have that head ach problem, its sad that they are so prone to aggression, But that’s just the thing, they are prone to aggression, and are very territorial, this makes them dangerous to have in populated areas. I don’t think they should simply be exterminated. but like what we did with Turk, they should be relocated. To less populated places.

[Shunké]

I just don't belive a dog would just one day decide "hmm, today I'm going to try something new and bite my human". There is a reason for every bite, a dog will not just bite someone for no reason! The ones where they attacked the face- did they look into the dog's eyes? Blow on it? Make a sound, other than talking? Growl at it, or pretend to bite it? I've got bitten on the face quite a few times, when doing one of those things listed. No lie. Looking into the eyes is a big set off- even if you had done it before and the dog didn't react. Like I said- Pit bulls do more damage, than other dogs. And they don't bite, for no reason.

Like I said before, dogs, especally pits, are extreamly territorial. You can hand feed a dog and not have it bite you, but if you get near it's food or cage and it feels threatened, it can bite. Like, my aunt's Boarder Collie. She hand fed the dog a peice of meat. He took it fine, but when she bent down next to him, he took a chunk out of her leg. She had to go to the hospital, and get several stitches. And the dog was a pure breed.

Yes, so pit bulls are more violent than other breeds. So you ban them from populated areas, what happens to the rest of the dogs? Chiauas are mean, Boarder Collies, Rotties, Chows, German Shepherds- the list goes on and on. You just hear about Pit Bulls more, than you do other dogs. No one wants to hear about a lab bitting a child.

[Sitka]

Helo I'm new and hello to everyone

Even though I am new this is a subject I've seen many times before.

There is a thing called a Black list that insurance salesmen have. It is a list of dogs thet cause a higher rate on your home insurance just because of the breed you own. At the top are the breeds mentioned in earlier posts, somewhere in the middle are dogs you would feel do not deserve to be on the list.
lkalmanson.com/dog.html
that's just one version of the list

As a breed a breed is banned another breed stepps up in line to be the next dog to be banned. This is because, if a dog fight owner can no longer get his hands on a pitt or a rott he will use what ever breed is avalible to him.

Some mutts need a ban. If your going to bann a breed you also need a regulation on mixed dogs with aggression. I say this because MANY MANY MANY times a breed is blamed for an attack when infact it was a mixed breed that looked like a more popular breed. Then the newspapers print what they believed was a pitt bull when infact the dog was a lab/corso mix and histeria starts. Or a huskyXGermans shepherd cross bites someone so Siberian Husky is put on the black list. When this breed can not even protect your home from burgulars.



So the moral of this story is Before we point the finger at a certian breed of dog Do we truely know a purebreed of dog committed the crime, and if it was not a purebreed how do we regulate the mixed breed lookalikes? Or do we stop people from owning large breed dogs alltogether?

[Wolfbane]

I have a pit bull that I keep at the barn I board my horses in. I will let the world know that it is NOT THE BREED'S FAULT that their owners screw them up and make them aggressive. My pitbull is kept in a cage most of the night and a few morning hours because he runs out into the street, but he has never and will never attack anyone. He jumps on people and licks them and is the friendliest little lapdog around. Also, he's not neutered, which sometimes gives dogs a reputation for being more violent.
Hell, cocker spaniels are more violent than pitbulls because many attach to one person and snap and growl at whoever gets too close. My mother has one and I hate the bitch.

My point is this: People are stupid not to teach their children to stay AWAY from dogs they don't know and that a dog is what you raise it to be. Any animal can become a gentle giant or a vicious beast. It just depends how you raise it; if you cannot take care of your animals then don't fcking get an animal. A dog doesn't just go crazy - this is too impossible to be logical. The only things that could rile a dog is:
.past treatment.
.past trauma.
.taunting/teasing/mocking.
.positions naturally suggestive and aggressive to the species.
.sense of a person being more dangerous than another.
.PRESENT ABUSE/NEGLECT.
.constant confinement.
.sudden change in habitat/environment/lifestyle/location.
.lengthy absence of owner/loved one (Includes death).
.territory invasion.

A dog does not just attack. The children must have done SOMETHING to rile the dogs into attacking. None of my pitbulls have ever acted violently. They have been raised with love and other dogs around them, a constant invasion of 'territory' and sometimes a dogfight threat, and yet they have never, never opened their mouths towards a human.

[Sudak]

OK, I will ramble on forever and ever on this subject and frankly I'm tired of trying to explain myself on these subjects. So here short sweet and simple.

Breed Ban: In the areas where high attack rates are found, i.e. high dog fighting areas, major cities, etc.

somebody earlier mentioned how do you define attack well in the law book for Virginia if my memory serves me correctly I would define it as any breaking of the skin, excluding the attacks that are provoked, brought upon by protection of itself or young, etc. That last part is actually from the lawbook, not word for word but paraphrased.

They were actually pushing for a breed ban on pit bulls in my area as an elderly women was mauled by one and killed. I don't think the bill passed. But this brought up many people that claimed to be RESCUERS for the breed and were SAVING them from pounds and shelters but in fact they were putting them in worse situations where they would have been better off put down. In this case, a breed ban would have worked wonders in my opinion. Don't take me wrong there are many many good pit bull rescues out there and those that are well educated in the breed and know what they're getting into have all my support, but everybody needs to realize we can't save them all and I personally have seen many pit bulls come into the pound I work at and show too much aggression to ever be adopted out. This is a liability issue and there is no other choice but to put it down. end of story.

Euthanasia on Dogs involved with Attacks:

This is something from my experiences that has always been dealt with by the courts, judicial system and all. Almost 100% of the time I've seen them say euthanize or the dog is declared dangerous and most be spayed/neutered, kept confined, display a tag declaring it a dangerous dog that is easily visible to bystandards and other things like that... I can't remember what else they were required to do other than pay a fine... but if the situation was serious enough, where the judge believes the act was brought on by sheer act of the dog, no provocation, etc. then euthanasia was used. It's the best for the dog and the citizens of the area.

Insurance Black List:

There are lists that insurance agencies have on home-owners insurance but these lists are usually used to determine the price because of the breeds tendincy to cause damage to the home, not attacking of humans, or the like... that's not the purpose of home-owner's insurance, that's life or health insurance. I've had experience with that list as I own a Siberian Husky... I understand perfectly well why they charge higher while in the meantime the only thing my husky does destructive is every once in a while dig a small hole, most recently to find some turtle that's shown up in our back yard, lol... but you get my drift on this subject, right? Damage liability to house is the reason for the list.

Breeding out the Bad Ones:

This can be accomplished but with a lot of time. There a tons of "good" pit bulls and other "bullie" breeds out there. From personal experience most of them have been spayed or neutered. This done before the age of two, preferably right when they're old enough, depending on the vet you use, this age is where I've generally seen the temperament of the Pit Bulls, in general, change. The dog has become mature by this time and the horomones cause a big change in their temperament, hence the change in their attitudes and proness to attacking. Fixing a dog makes a HUGE difference in their attitudes. They're great dogs but people think oh he's fine now when he's young he'll be fine then... well that's a slim slim chance. But yes back to the subject, with many loving homes and responsible responsible RESPONSIBLE breeding programs by REGISTERED breeders for the best of the breed they can make a difference.

Also WolfBane I just saw your post, I agree with you also, there are some few dogs that aren't fixed that are perfectly fine, but like I sad... "from my experience" that number is very few and far. And your line about not getting the dog if you don't take care of it... *AMEN TO THAT*

Ok i'll stop rambling, riticule me all you want but I"m really not going to post on this again as there are way to many opinions out there. I'm just telling you what's best for the dogs and people, balanced out... out of all my years of experience in this field... This is what i've found to be the truth. PM me if you want to know some more info but other than that... i'm done

[Sudak]

OK one last thing I have to just say...

This is something we in the dog rescue world say to ourselves constantly.

"YOU CAN'T SAVE THEM ALL"

that is something you have to tell yourself. Yes that dog looks like he could be rehabilitated but the truth his does the group have funds, space, and time to care for this animal humanely and properly. Give it love and compassion as it needs. It's something you have to decide whether you take that one or the one that will come in tommorow that will be adopted with no problems.

YOU CAN'T SAVE THEM ALL

[Farrah]

Ok...you guys have said a lot here...and I had to read it all...my eyes hurt at this point...
Anyways, yes, all the things that Wolfie said I agree with, but there's one more thing I'd like to add to the list of reasons the 'go bad': personality.
It's like...have any of you seen War of the Worlds? Or any war movies or anything? If you have, you know that before the war or crisis or whatever, most of the people were good, respectable human beings: they paid their taxes, they looked out for the neighborhood, they cared for others...they lived pretty normal lives. When chaos struck, their whole personality changed.
This is not about a pitt bull, but about a mutt with no pitt bull in her at all...she was changed from a sweet little dog into a demon after surviving hurricaine Katrina in Bay Saint Louis...the only way she survived was by floating up in an icebox to the surface...after that, it's never been the same, and is being put to sleep probably as we speak if not all ready...it attacked its owner, an 84-year-old lady, for no apparent reason...and this is the owner she grew up with...and usually, she would carry the same temperament and then be agressive for no reason...
You're probably asking what in the name of Tor this has to do with any of this debate, aren't cha?
The whole skull-and-brain trauma thing. All animals act differently to pressure, stress, and pain. When put in situations, personalities come through. For instance, when I'm in extreme pain, I remain quiet. When my sister's in extreme pain, she yowls and screams and is a pain in...*sighs* When one of my guy friends, MacKenzie, is in pain, he sucks in a lot of air. When my friend Laura is in pain, she kinda makes a high-pitched but quiet squealing sound. Different people, different reactions. When my dog, Bear, is in pain, he howls and looks at your pleadingly. When MacKenzie's dog is in pain, it attacks people, and it's not a breed on the list.
While one pitt bull will react with aggression, another will act with affection.
Just thought I'd throw that in...enjoy...

[Sudak]

Dogs are animals! As much as we want to consider them like humans they are still dogs. They have a level of intelligence that sees the world differently then we do. We think through logically "Ok the doctor will take the needle out in a second. I can hold back the pain." but a dog thinks "Pain must get rid of it" It's a reaction that many call "Flight or Fight" Many MANY dogs choose flight or fight, wolves particularly choose flight... however since dogs have been domesticated fight has become easier and easier to, i guess a way to put it is... use. All dogs have this reaction it's just some breeds have been breed by some "BAD BREEDERS" and have put this mentaility into the dog of I MUST fight. It's just become a genetic instinct.

There is just sooooooooooo much to cover on this subject it's almost impossible unless we write a freakin' book. *sighs*

Ohh and don't get me wrong.. I LOVE my dog.. I treat her as any loving owner would with compassion and all.. considering her human but I have just the knowledge of what's really going on in that stubbourn little brain of hers